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this situation is purely hypothetical

one car
1 (20%)
two cars
4 (80%)

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Offline 68_427

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2016, 09:56:38 pm »
Exactly.  Too much overlap there.  At some point you're either going to say "well the Focus is almost as fun as the Miata I'll just drive that and have a better stereo and better ride" or say "well the Miata is almost as comfortable as the Focus I'll take the open top car today!"

Then you have one car that barely gets used because it's too similar to your other car.  For example I never question which car to take  when I need to drive somewhere because the Outback and Sierra drive so differently.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 09:58:56 pm by 68_427 »
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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2016, 10:36:01 pm »
For the record, since lane-splitting is a thing here in CA, the bike is actually my main commuter right now, so I don't doubt that a Focus ST would be nice enough for me to commute in if I were so inclined. Or heck, at 5'9, the Miata wouldn't be cramped for me at all for daily use. However, if the noise levels are similar to the AP1 S2000, that might get old quickly.

I totally get the FoST being too "Focused" as a performance car (sorry for the pun) to be used as a commuter, and there being too much overlap between the 2 cars and a bike, so perhaps something less frantic should be called for. Kinda hard to find something in this price range that's not a Camcord, though.

Offline Cookie Monster

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2016, 12:24:15 am »
Your frame of reference is different. You are OK with commuting by motorcycle in bad weather 100% of the time.

I think a Focus ST being uncomfortable is a bit of an exaggeration, but I also think it's too compromised to fit in a multiple car garage. It's made for people who want a little of everything. Every vehicle in a multiple car situation should compromise as little as possible to the end goal. So if one of the cars has to be a comfy daily driver, it should be as comfy and daily driverish as possible. I'd say a regular Focus would be a better choice for example. If someone wants a thrill ride, obvious choice is motorcycle, but if it has to have 4 wheels, I'm thinking something like an Elise, Cayman S, Z4M Coupe or a kit car or something. Has to go as far as possible in the direction of the intended purpose.

I can see how there is overlap, but I don't see how that's a bad thing. It's not like you're giving up comfort or usability compared to a standard Focus. In fact, I don't see how a Focus ST is compromised for a DD at all. It's comfortable, has a ton of creature comforts, practical, but is still decently engaging to drive. It still doesn't touch a Miata or bike for engagement, though.

For the record, since lane-splitting is a thing here in CA, the bike is actually my main commuter right now, so I don't doubt that a Focus ST would be nice enough for me to commute in if I were so inclined. Or heck, at 5'9, the Miata wouldn't be cramped for me at all for daily use. However, if the noise levels are similar to the AP1 S2000, that might get old quickly.

I totally get the FoST being too "Focused" as a performance car (sorry for the pun) to be used as a commuter, and there being too much overlap between the 2 cars and a bike, so perhaps something less frantic should be called for. Kinda hard to find something in this price range that's not a Camcord, though.

In your case, I'd just get the Focus ST (or similar) and just skip the fun car since you have the bike already.
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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2016, 06:14:15 am »
You can't though, that's why you're getting an SUV :lol:

The SUV isn't for daily driving. It's for hauling and days when there's snow on the road. And maybe when it's under like 30 degrees.

Do you really think there's even a possibility I could give up driving a sports car with a manual everyday for some tall suburban status symbol with an automatic everyday?
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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2016, 06:15:26 am »
I daily drove a Miata for years then a brz. It's not a matter of going "soft". If you're going to spend the dollars to get two cars, why have a sports car and a sort of sporty, compromised hatchback too?

So basically it comes down to the MX-5 not being hardcore enough, then?
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Offline MX793

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2016, 06:28:27 am »
I will just chime in here and say that if I lived in a place that gets less than a foot of snow per year, I would only have the Mustang and the bike.  My second car sits in storage from late April until November.
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Offline MrH

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2016, 06:34:16 am »
So basically it comes down to the MX-5 not being hardcore enough, then?

...what?
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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2016, 06:35:43 am »
So basically it comes down to the MX-5 not being hardcore enough, then?

Sounds right to me.

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2016, 07:01:12 am »
...what?

The issue is that neither the Focus not the MX-5 go far enough into their respective categories to be considered viable options to share a garage; apparently some have expressed the concern that they are too similar.
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Offline 12,000 RPM

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2016, 07:18:37 am »
I can see how there is overlap, but I don't see how that's a bad thing. It's not like you're giving up comfort or usability compared to a standard Focus. In fact, I don't see how a Focus ST is compromised for a DD at all. It's comfortable, has a ton of creature comforts, practical, but is still decently engaging to drive. It still doesn't touch a Miata or bike for engagement, though.
It's louder and stiffer. For what I'm guessing is a bumper to bumper highway slog, these are negatives, IMO.

The issue is that neither the Focus not the MX-5 go far enough into their respective categories to be considered viable options to share a garage; apparently some have expressed the concern that they are too similar.
Exactly. Especially with a motorcycle.

Driving engagement is good, but not all the time. If I had a shitty commute, I would want a car that's relaxing and disengaging if anything.
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Offline Rich

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2016, 07:38:45 am »
It's louder and stiffer. For what I'm guessing is a bumper to bumper highway slog, these are negatives, IMO.

And more expensive/worse gas mileage, and maybe higher insurance costs.
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Offline MrH

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2016, 07:49:29 am »
It's louder and stiffer. For what I'm guessing is a bumper to bumper highway slog, these are negatives, IMO.
Exactly. Especially with a motorcycle.

Driving engagement is good, but not all the time. If I had a shitty commute, I would want a car that's relaxing and disengaging if anything.

Yeah.  Going through traffic every day is awful.  Isolation from the grind is a good thing.  In the S2000, sitting on the highway going between 0-30 mph, bumper to bumper with the top down isn't fun.  Can't even listen to podcasts because semi trucks are everywhere and all you can hear if their exhausts.  If I take the S2000 now, I usually either leave early or late to avoid sitting for awhile.
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Offline 12,000 RPM

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2016, 07:53:20 am »
I mean I know he wrote off the Camcords..... but the V6 versions of those cars are faster than the FoST by a decent margin, and if anything would be nicer in the bumper to bumper grind :mask:

The TTAC loudmouth BigTruckSeriesReview said it best.... I'm paraphrasing but basically he said something like Ring times and Brembo brakes don't matter when you're sitting in traffic. I'll extend that to even more basic shit like steering feel and a third pedal.
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Offline CALL_911

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2016, 08:17:15 am »
I will just chime in here and say that if I lived in a place that gets less than a foot of snow per year, I would only have the Mustang and the bike.  My second car sits in storage from late April until November.
Hell yeah. Since we got the S2000 I've been alternating between it and the GTI. If it was consistently nice here, I'd prob ditch the GTI altogether.

True driver's cars have been on the decline ever since they started making cars in which the driver no longer had to advance the ignition timing manually on the fly.  It's been a downhill slide of ever decreasing driver involvement and control ever since.

Offline Cookie Monster

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2016, 10:10:15 am »
It's louder and stiffer. For what I'm guessing is a bumper to bumper highway slog, these are negatives, IMO.
Exactly. Especially with a motorcycle.

Driving engagement is good, but not all the time. If I had a shitty commute, I would want a car that's relaxing and disengaging if anything.

How much experience do you have with the Focus ST? It's barely loud at all and not very stiff either. Yes, stiffer than a pillow but it's not harsh at all. Say what you will about my standards being skewed from a motorcycle and a stripped out Miata, but the ST is not an uncomfortable car to be in in any circumstance.


Anyways, since Vin has the motorcycle, he can get whatever he wants as a commuter since it's going to be used relatively rarely. I'd go NC if he doesn't need a lot of room, or Focus ST or maybe the Honda Civic turbo hatch if he wants some practicality. There is no way I'd ever get a more boring version of a car, especially when the performance version is still a great commuter.
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Offline 12,000 RPM

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2016, 10:35:23 am »
How much experience do you have with the Focus ST? It's barely loud at all and not very stiff either. Yes, stiffer than a pillow but it's not harsh at all. Say what you will about my standards being skewed from a motorcycle and a stripped out Miata, but the ST is not an uncomfortable car to be in in any circumstance.


Anyways, since Vin has the motorcycle, he can get whatever he wants as a commuter since it's going to be used relatively rarely. I'd go NC if he doesn't need a lot of room, or Focus ST or maybe the Honda Civic turbo hatch if he wants some practicality. There is no way I'd ever get a more boring version of a car, especially when the performance version is still a great commuter.
Your frame of reference + preference is a motorcycle and a completely stripped out straight pipe coilover'd track car. I didn't say it was loud, just that it was louder than the base version. I haven't been in an ST but I've driven the new Focus.

The best complement to a motorcycle isn't something sporty. That would be a waste of time. Something like a luxury car or an SUV makes more sense. Again there are times when more engagement is not a plus- prob the most obvious case is bumper to bumper traffic.
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Offline Cookie Monster

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2016, 10:38:36 am »
Your frame of reference + preference is a motorcycle and a completely stripped out straight pipe coilover'd track car. I didn't say it was loud, just that it was louder than the base version. I haven't been in an ST but I've driven the new Focus.

The best complement to a motorcycle isn't something sporty. That would be a waste of time. Something like a luxury car or an SUV makes more sense. Again there are times when more engagement is not a plus- prob the most obvious case is bumper to bumper traffic.

How is it a waste of time? With your scenario, you give up any sense of driving enjoyment at all just because you have a motorcycle. Just because I ride doesn't mean I don't enjoy driving, either. I absolutely would miss a manual transmission, good steering feedback and an overall engaging drive no matter how much I rode. Sometimes I jump in the Miata to do errands I could do on the bike just because I still do enjoy driving.

You seem to want to replace driving with riding completely. I think they complement each other well and would still want an engaging car to drive when I'm not riding.

I don't get why you're hating on the ST  so hard when you've had zero experience with one. My roommate/friend had one and it was a very nice car for driving around in. He ended up putting in stiffer motor mounts, which caused more vibration than most people would like but stock it was great.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 10:41:26 am by Cookie Monster »
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Offline 2o6

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2016, 10:55:05 am »
IDK man, the Focus ST is a stiff and loud car

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2016, 11:00:33 am »
How is it a waste of time? With your scenario, you give up any sense of driving enjoyment at all just because you have a motorcycle. Just because I ride doesn't mean I don't enjoy driving, either. I absolutely would miss a manual transmission, good steering feedback and an overall engaging drive no matter how much I rode. Sometimes I jump in the Miata to do errands I could do on the bike just because I still do enjoy driving.

You seem to want to replace driving with riding completely. I think they complement each other well and would still want an engaging car to drive when I'm not riding.

I don't get why you're hating on the ST  so hard when you've had zero experience with one. My roommate/friend had one and it was a very nice car for driving around in. He ended up putting in stiffer motor mounts, which caused more vibration than most people would like but stock it was great.

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2016, 11:32:58 am »
When I test drove the Element, it seemed like it would make a great commuter car. I'd definitely want an additional fun car along with it even if I already do have a bike, though.

I like the idea of a Civic turbo, but I'm sure I'd be fine with a Focus ST as my practical car if I became dead set on one. If anything, it would be harder to justify getting a Miata, as it would essentially be a third vehicle.

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Offline 12,000 RPM

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2016, 11:35:38 am »
How is it a waste of time? With your scenario, you give up any sense of driving enjoyment at all just because you have a motorcycle. Just because I ride doesn't mean I don't enjoy driving, either. I absolutely would miss a manual transmission, good steering feedback and an overall engaging drive no matter how much I rode. Sometimes I jump in the Miata to do errands I could do on the bike just because I still do enjoy driving.
Again, an M/T and responsive chassis is meaningless in bumper to bumper traffic. The fact that dude lane splits and mostly rides indicates that's what driving on the same route would be like.

And whimsical errand runs are a completely different bag from commuting. I doubt your milk runs were during bumper to bumper traffic during rush hour. They can't be compared. Commuting is what made me go from enjoying to dreading the Z.

You seem to want to replace driving with riding completely. I think they complement each other well and would still want an engaging car to drive when I'm not riding.
If I could drive like you (i.e. 100% milk runs and track days) then yes, engagement would be a priority. I'm not knocking engagement.... in the right context. Cali rush hour traffic is not that context.

I don't get why you're hating on the ST  so hard when you've had zero experience with one. My roommate/friend had one and it was a very nice car for driving around in. He ended up putting in stiffer motor mounts, which caused more vibration than most people would like but stock it was great.
I'm not "hating on the ST so hard" :facepalm: I think it's an awesome car. I am probably going to check one out for the next ride, actually, because I'm fortunate enough to have a commute that would let me enjoy it everyday. Vinsanity doesn't, which, motorcycle or not, makes it a bad choice for him in my opinion.

It all comes down to picking the right tool for the job. Saying a car is not a good fit for a certain kind of driving is not dumping on the car :huh:
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Offline Cookie Monster

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2016, 11:50:18 am »
Again, an M/T and responsive chassis is meaningless in bumper to bumper traffic. The fact that dude lane splits and mostly rides indicates that's what driving on the same route would be like.

And whimsical errand runs are a completely different bag from commuting. I doubt your milk runs were during bumper to bumper traffic during rush hour. They can't be compared. Commuting is what made me go from enjoying to dreading the Z.

Yes, he's going to be commuting on the bike, so why not have something somewhat engaging for said "milk runs"? I don't have to sit in traffic in the car, and neither does he, so why are you still recommending a boring vehicle?

Quote
If I could drive like you (i.e. 100% milk runs and track days) then yes, engagement would be a priority. I'm not knocking engagement.... in the right context. Cali rush hour traffic is not that context.

Again, it doesn't sound like he's going to be stuck in traffic, either. He even just said he wants a fun car alongside the bike, too.

Quote
I'm not "hating on the ST so hard" :facepalm: I think it's an awesome car. I am probably going to check one out for the next ride, actually, because I'm fortunate enough to have a commute that would let me enjoy it everyday. Vinsanity doesn't, which, motorcycle or not, makes it a bad choice for him in my opinion.

It all comes down to picking the right tool for the job. Saying a car is not a good fit for a certain kind of driving is not dumping on the car :huh:

So if you can't enjoy the car on your commute, you shouldn't get a fun car is what you're saying? I have a terrible commute and I still have a fun car for the times I'm not commuting. I'm just confused by your logic because he's got his commuter covered already, and no car is ever going to touch a bike for commuting in CA. Why not get something engaging and fun on the side when he wants to drive? Personally, I'd rather just go bike-only than have something boring like a CamCord. It has to be something engaging or something super practical (like a pickup for motorcycle track days), in which case said practical vehicle would also pretty much never get used either.

And FWIW the ST is absolutely the right tool for the job IMO. If he didn't want a manual transmission, he wouldn't have linked two manual transmission cars in his first post in his two car scenario.
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Offline 12,000 RPM

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2016, 12:05:28 pm »
Yes, he's going to be commuting on the bike, so why not have something somewhat engaging for said "milk runs"? I don't have to sit in traffic in the car, and neither does he, so why are you still recommending a boring vehicle?
He can go on milk runs on the bike too.

Again, it doesn't sound like he's going to be stuck in traffic, either. He even just said he wants a fun car alongside the bike, too.
He said he lane splits on the bike basically every day. How could that be if his commute has no traffic?

So if you can't enjoy the car on your commute, you shouldn't get a fun car is what you're saying? I have a terrible commute and I still have a fun car for the times I'm not commuting. I'm just confused by your logic because he's got his commuter covered already, and no car is ever going to touch a bike for commuting in CA. Why not get something engaging and fun on the side when he wants to drive? Personally, I'd rather just go bike-only than have something boring like a CamCord. It has to be something engaging or something super practical (like a pickup for motorcycle track days), in which case said practical vehicle would also pretty much never get used either.

And FWIW the ST is absolutely the right tool for the job IMO. If he didn't want a manual transmission, he wouldn't have linked two manual transmission cars in his first post in his two car scenario.
I am just speaking to the specific parameters and things I know about Vin. His current car is a CTS- not even a V. He's not out at track days every weekend or whatever. We know from the fact that he lane splits every day that his commute by car will be 0% fun. He is on his own, so he needs something at least a little practical.

Like I said, it's about picking the right tool for the job. Ultimately I think it comes down to how many miles he's gonna put on this car, and where those miles are gonna be. If this is just a rain/errand/road trip car, and like 80%+ of his miles are on the bike, I still think the 528i is a better choice.... again, if he wants engagement, he has the bike. If he wants to relax, which people do, he will have the 528i :huh:
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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2016, 12:26:23 pm »
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Offline 12,000 RPM

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2016, 12:28:24 pm »
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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2016, 12:35:25 pm »
Alright here's the thing: I don't drive nearly enough to justify 3 vehicles in rotation. But if I wanted them anyway, the best way to avoid one just sitting around in neglect, it should be something that I'd look forward to driving. The Civic turbo is a lovely commuter car, I'm sure, but I don't imagine myself looking forward to driving it. Would commuting in a Focus ST be a miserable experience? I think I'll be fine, especially with 2 other vehicles to juggle, and considering that it would be more of a "milk run" car anyway.  Is it an ideal commuter car? Not really, but it would be something that would be fun to hop into when I need more than 2 seats and a tiny trunk.

That said, in the much more likely case that I'd decide on one car instead of two, the game changes a bit. I'd want something further from the bike and more pleasant overall for when a car is needed (but definitely still fun, though), so I like the 528i idea as well.

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« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 12:37:53 pm by Vinsanity »

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #56 on: October 03, 2016, 12:36:48 pm »
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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #57 on: October 03, 2016, 12:36:55 pm »
Chevy SS + bike
I'd be down for that if used ones fall to $30k next year. There few that are for sale around me are on sketchy used car lots

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Offline MrH

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2016, 12:37:48 pm »
72 month financing! :lol:
2015 Toyota 4Runner SR5
2001 Honda S2000

Previous: 2002 Mazda Protege5, 2008 Mazda Miata, 2005 Toyota Tacoma, 2009 Honda Element, 2013 Subaru BRZ, 2014 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0

Offline Cookie Monster

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Re: one car vs. two cars
« Reply #59 on: October 03, 2016, 12:41:25 pm »
He can go on milk runs on the bike too.
He said he lane splits on the bike basically every day. How could that be if his commute has no traffic?
I am just speaking to the specific parameters and things I know about Vin. His current car is a CTS- not even a V. He's not out at track days every weekend or whatever. We know from the fact that he lane splits every day that his commute by car will be 0% fun. He is on his own, so he needs something at least a little practical.

Like I said, it's about picking the right tool for the job. Ultimately I think it comes down to how many miles he's gonna put on this car, and where those miles are gonna be. If this is just a rain/errand/road trip car, and like 80%+ of his miles are on the bike, I still think the 528i is a better choice.... again, if he wants engagement, he has the bike. If he wants to relax, which people do, he will have the 528i :huh:

I'm saying if he's already commuting on the bike, why does he need to commute in the car? I'm assuming his situation is like mine - 90-100% of his commuting is by bike, so all the comforts and luxuries of a nice commuter car would be wasted. On the occasional days he has to drive, I still don't think an ST is a bad choice.

I also like the SS idea. Good luck finding a manual one for $30k ever, though. :lol:
RWD > FWD
President of the "I survived the Volvo S80 Thread" Club
2007 Mazda MX-5 | 1999 Honda Nighthawk 750 | 1989 Volvo 240 | 1991 Toyota 4Runner | 2006 Honda CBR600F4i | 2015 Yamaha FJ-09 | 1999 Honda CBR600F4 | 2009 Yamaha WR250X | 1985 Mazda RX-7 | 2000 Yamaha YZ426F | 2006 Yamaha FZ1 | 2002 Honda CBR954RR

Or order from fortune auto and when lyft rider asks why your car feels bumpy you can show them the dyno curve
1 3 5
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2 4 R